ANDRII KUTSYK: Your organization, the Center for civilian Liberties (CCL), is 1 of the founding members of the Tribunal for Putin initiative, which, among another objectives, papers war crimes committed by Russian forces. How many specified crimes have been documented?
OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK: We are part of a joint initiative called “Tribunal for Putin” — a coalition of many organizations, primarily based in the regions, that operate under a unified methodology. Our goal is to paper all instance of war crimes, even those committed in the smallest villages. Currently, our database contains over 89,000 recorded episodes of war crimes. Unfortunately, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Russia systematically uses war crimes as a method of warfare. In essence, it has weaponized pain – deliberately inflicting suffering on the civilian population in an effort to break their opposition and facilitate occupation.
One of the war crimes for which the global Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for Russian president Vladimir Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, the Presidential Commissioner for Children’s Rights, is the forced deportation of Ukrainian children. How many specified cases has your organization documented? How many children have been successfully returned so far?
We trust only on authoritative figures. Ukrainian authorities estimation that about 20,000 children have been deported. However, according to data from Yale University’s Humanitarian investigation Lab, at least 35,000 Ukrainian children have been identified and tracked as having been forcibly taken to Russia — suggesting the actual number may be importantly higher. The exact figure remains unknown. What is clear, however, is that this is simply a systematic and widespread practice. That is why, in 2023, the global Criminal Court issued arrest warrants for Russian president Vladimir Putin and his Commissioner for Children’s Rights, Maria Lvova-Belova.
What do you think are the chances of bringing Vladimir Putin to justice for war crimes, peculiarly for the deportation of Ukrainian children?
I would say that there is simply a chance — and that, in itself, is simply a luxury. Having a chance is not the same as having a guarantee, and people frequently confuse the two. In life, we seldom have 100 per cent guarantees — whether in justice or in any another sphere. But we do have a chance, and it’s our work to usage it. past shows us that authoritarian regimes do fall, and leaders who erstwhile considered themselves untouchable have ended up in court. In our region, a powerful example is Slobodan Milošević. Serbia initially refused to hand him over — he was considered a national hero — but yet he faced trial. A more fresh case is erstwhile Philippine president Rodrigo Duterte. I uncertainty he always imagined he would be investigated by the global Criminal Court, yet here we are. This is precisely why Vladimir Putin and his interior ellipse are uneasy. Their public bravado about impunity is contradicted by their actions. In all negotiation over the past 11 years — starting with the Minsk agreements — 1 of Russia’s consistent demands has been amnesty for global crimes. That alone reveals how afraid they are. They know their future is far from certain.
Russia is conducting a large-scale disinformation run aimed at concealing and justifying the crime of deporting Ukrainian children. In your opinion, what should be the effective mechanisms for countering this disinformation? Have you personally encountered politicians or public figures in the West who are influenced by Russian narratives?
We monitor Russian propaganda on this issue. Russia tries to justify this war crime with claims that it is simply “evacuating” these children — but that communicative falls apart erstwhile confronted with the many documented cases of alleged evacuations. In reality, Russia arrests the children’s parents, separates them from their families, and takes the children to Russia, preparing them for forced adoption. During this time, the children stay under the control of the Russian state, frequently in conditions of confinement. This propaganda might work on the Russian population — it may even be primarily targeted at them. Russia wants to present itself as morally upright, showing that it’s “rescuing” Ukrainian children through these evacuations. But I don’t truly see this communicative gaining traction internationally. The real problem is different: on the global level, there is inactive very small awareness about this practice —especially in certain regions of the world, specified as Africa, Latin America, and parts of Asia. For many, this is entirely fresh information. I callback gathering with a elder authoritative in the United States and their advisor. erstwhile I spoke about the deported children, the follow-up question they asked made it clear that this was besides an unfamiliar or underexplored issue for them. So even in places where we assumed everyone was already aware, that turns out not to be the case. This is the real problem: we are dealing with an oversaturated information environment. And in specified conditions, we must consistently and clearly explain the crimes Russia is committing against children — and that Vladimir Putin is, in fact, the biggest kid kidnapper in the world. And that’s not a metaphor. We base that message on the arrest warrant issued by the global Criminal Court.
Do you believe that the US political elite is presently ready to work on the issue of returning children from Russian captivity? Is there political commitment?
There are very different opinions on this, due to the fact that children are always something that draws peculiar attention in any society. A crime against children is simply a red line, no substance which children are involved. First and foremost, we are human beings. That is why this issue resonates with politicians. The question is how to address it correctly and what actions to take. We see, for example, that a bipartisan resolution has been introduced in legislature regarding the abduction of Ukrainian children, and it proposes addressing this issue by linking sanctions to specified cases. This means that, at the highest national level, certain individuals liable for a vast number of processes active in committing this crime are being targeted. At the lower level, there are soldiers, social workers who transport these children, and besides teachers who tell the children that they are not Ukrainians but Russians. So the focus here is on sanctioning those at the top — people who have something to lose from these sanctions. This is 1 possible way to influence the situation and bring about change. And we are seeing that specified initiatives do be within the American political scene.
You have undertaken many advocacy trips across Europe. Is there a difference in the knowing of the issue of abducted Ukrainian children between Europeans and Americans?
Europe is very diverse — there are countries that are more aware of this issue, and there are those that are little informed. I wouldn’t generalize erstwhile speaking at the level of individual countries. At the European Union level, the issue of deported children is frequently mentioned in public statements by top officials. But, ultimately, the right words must be followed by the right actions. We are besides waiting for any concrete and active steps to be taken. Of course, it is highly hard to make a clear, four-step algorithm that would consequence in the return of these children next day or in the foreseeable future. Russia ignores decisions made by global organizations. Russia disregards the norms of global humanitarian law. And yet, these are children. We must do everything possible to bring them back.
We are besides aware of precedents where ICC decisions have not been enforced, including by Mongolia, as well as Hungary’s decision to retreat from the Court’s jurisdiction. Do you believe these are isolated cases or signs of a systemic threat to the ICC’s existence?
This is simply a sign that the full global strategy of peace and security, which was created in the last century, is collapsing and falling apart. And the strategy of global justice is just 1 fragment of that broader structure. We besides see that the problem runs much deeper. In the past, we could respond to global challenges — sometimes more effectively, sometimes little so — but today, the strategy is simply stalling, reduced to ritualistic motions. For example, the work of the UN safety Council is completely paralyzed by Russia’s veto power. These are all signs that everything has an expiration date, and this strategy has reached the end of its own. The planet has changed, yet no meaningful reforms have been implemented. The strategy inactive operates as it was originally designed after the Second planet War. And it’s now very clear that it can no longer effectively carry out its functions of prevention and protection against mass atrocities. erstwhile it comes to the global Criminal Court (ICC), this is not the first time arrest warrants have been ignored. I can callback the case of Sudan’s president Omar al-Bashir. He was issued an arrest warrant by the ICC for the genocide in Darfur, yet he travelled freely across various African countries for years. They besides completely ignored and failed to fulfil their obligations under the Rome Statute. So unfortunately, this is not new. The ICC doesn’t have an global police force — it relies on the goodwill and cooperation of its associate states. That said, we have seen that the arrest warrant has indeed made the planet smaller for Putin. Yes, he was able to visit Mongolia — due to the fact that Mongolia is geographically trapped between Russia and China and finds it very hard to prosecute an independent and bold abroad policy.
But for example, in 2023, erstwhile the president of the Republic of South Africa Cyril Ramaphosa invited Putin to the BRICS summit, Putin yet could not attend, due to the fact that South African civilian society spoke up and insisted that if he arrived, he would should be arrested. And in 2024, erstwhile Brazilian president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva invited Putin to the G20 summit in Brazil, he again did not go — for the same reason. civilian society in these countries, despite all their interior challenges, is active and democratic. And in specified conditions, Putin feels insecure.
Does genuine global solidarity the kind Ukraine needs — be today? Do you see anyone who has taken, or is ready to take, work for leadership in this conflict between democracy and authoritarianism?
The reality is that our planet is vast, and Ukraine is not the only hotspot. There are many terrible places around the globe where wars are raging or where hateful regimes are committing mass force against their own people. Naturally, this shifts and divides attention — and with it, solidarity — due to the fact that these situations besides require a response. Another origin is that Ukraine has not always been proactive in telling its own communicative — who we are. For 3 centuries, we lived in the shadow of the Russian Empire. And erstwhile you travel to parts of the planet farther from Europe, people frequently only know that you come from the same region as Russia. Everything they know about Ukraine is what Russia has told them over the years and decades.
Now, for possibly the first time, we have the chance to talk with our own voice and tell the planet what Ukraine truly is: a sovereign state, and that Ukrainians are a people distinct from Russians. That we have our own language, that books are written in this language, and people in Ukraine read them. For many, this is simply a revelation, due to the fact that it completely contradicts what they’ve been told by Russia. At the same time, I must say that this is simply a two-way street. Ukrainians, who anticipate solidarity from others, must besides show solidarity in return. As I mentioned, there are many hotspots in the planet today, and we must besides stand with people who are fighting for freedom, for justice, and for human dignity — not just wait for support, but be willing to give it too.
In your Nobel Peace Prize speech, you said: “You don’t should be Ukrainians to support Ukraine. It is adequate just to be humans.” Almost 3 years have passed since you received the Nobel Peace Prize. Among the politicians you’ve met during this time, have you frequently encountered “people with a human face”?
You know, we are all shaped by our professions. For example, I’m a human rights defender, and I have a very strong emotional consequence to injustice — no substance where it happens or who it affects. My worldview is not confined by national borders. Human rights violations in another countries resonate with me just as strongly. That’s partially due to my individual beliefs — after all, they led me into this field — but besides due to the fact that this position has been trained and reinforced through years of applicable work. Politicians besides have their own professional issues. And like any group of people, they’re very different from 1 another. There are those who simply have a different value system. I’m not saying it’s better or worse — it’s just different. any of them take a transactional approach. They might say: “I’m sorry about your country, but why we gotta aid you?” And you gotta know how to answer that, too.
perceive to the latest Talk east Europe podcast episode:
Today, there are differing opinions about Europe’s stance on the war in Ukraine. any say that the planet and Europe — are increasing tired of Ukraine, while others believe that Europe has actually awakened and is ready to invest in Ukraine and its own security. How do you see and feel this?
It’s natural that, over time, attention to Ukraine fades. And again, this is connected to the emergence of fresh flashpoints — fresh outbreaks of force in another parts of the world. These are natural processes, which is why we must come forward not just with stories of suffering, but with meaning. due to the fact that today’s victims featured in paper headlines will be replaced by fresh ones tomorrow. simply saying “We were attacked” is clearly not enough. I always remind myself: the war in Sudan has been ongoing for 23 years. Horrific crimes are being committed there, and many people fall victim to them all day — but even that is frequently not adequate to compose about it in the news. Sadly, people have become utilized to it, and this evil has been normalized. To avoid the same fate, we must talk through meaning — we must explain how Ukraine’s fight for freedom fits into a broader global context. And this is, of course, much easier to explain to European countries. due to the fact that Russia is an empire. An empire has a centre — but no borders. An empire always seeks expansion. And these European countries are safe present due to the fact that Ukrainians proceed to fight and hold back the Russian army. This increasing awareness — that helping Ukraine is not an act of charity, but an investment in their own safety — is beginning to take root.
But we besides see Hungary and Slovakia, where the governments are anti-Ukrainian and the same could possibly happen in Poland.
You mention Hungary, which has long been the subject of many reports detailing how democratic institutions there are being dismantled, freedom of speech is disappearing, and the judiciary is being brought under the control of the president’s interior circle. These are processes that are moving in the other direction of democratization. So there’s nothing amazing here.
Authoritarian leaders tend to support 1 another situationally due to the fact that they share a common worldview. They see people as objects to be governed. They deny rights and freedoms not only to others but besides to their own citizens. And that makes it very easy for them to find common understanding, even if they have another points of disagreement. I believe we request to talk more with populations within societies and explain that we are surviving in an era of turbulence, and we can no longer afford a childish mindset. This is something we practiced as kids. We played tag, and erstwhile you got tired or were about to lose, you could fold your hands into a small triangle and say, “I’m in the house.” That meant no 1 could contact you. It was fine erstwhile I was a kid but it doesn’t work in adult life. In adult life, erstwhile challenges come, you can’t just opt out. You gotta take responsibility. And unfortunately, the challenges we’re facing are of specified magnitude that this work cannot be placed solely on politicians. I think we request to find the right vocabulary and the right language and talk without preaching, without arrogance, without contempt. We request to explain things simply and clearly to people and societies: that we request their engagement now. That we are witnessing a global struggle, a conflict between authoritarianism and democracy. This war is just 1 manifestation of that broader struggle. And that is why it will yet find the kind of planet their children will live in.
“Pessimism is simply a luxury we cannot afford. erstwhile strength runs out, character takes over.” How frequently do you return to this quote? Do you inactive have strength left or have you been surviving and working on character alone for a long time now?
That’s precisely why I wrote that quote and head you, it was even before the full-scale invasion. Even then, there were times erstwhile I had to trust on sheer character to keep going. But what gives me strength is people. Truly. You know, in these dramatic times — times no 1 would want to live through, there is besides something remarkable: they let people to show their best qualities. To fight for freedom. To take work onto their own shoulders. To be brave. To aid 1 another. And that is incredibly inspiring. I believe that since we are already engaged in this fight against an authoritarian military machine, then regardless of what the future holds, we have already entered the pages of planet past with dignity.
Oleksandra Matviichuk is a human rights defender and head of the Center for civilian Liberties. She received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022. In 2016, she received the Democracy Defender Award from the OSCE. In 2017, she participated in the Ukrainian Emerging Leaders Program at Stanford University. In March 2022, together with another partners, she created the “Tribunal for Putin” initiative. besides in 2022, she was awarded the Sakharov Prize from the European Parliament. She is the initiator of the #SaveOlegSentsov run (renamed #LetMyPeopleGo after Oleg Sentsov’s release), which is aimed at securing the freedom of Ukrainian political prisoners. She is the author of a number of alternate reports submitted to respective global institutions, including the United Nations, the Council of Europe, the European Union, the OSCE, and the global Criminal Court. She is besides a associate of the Ukrainian PEN Club.
Andrii Kutsyk holds a PhD in doctrine of Media (Lesya Ukrainka Volyn National University/Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań) and a Master’s Degree in east European Studies (University of Warsaw). He is presently a investigation Fellow at the Institute of Political discipline at the University of Gdańsk, a associate of the investigation Institute for European Policy, and secretary of the European diary of Transformation Studies. In 2024, he besides received the Ivan Vyhovsky Prize.
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